Black Jack Suggestions

[trustwiz]

Lately many Casinos have brought CONTINUOUS SHUFFLE machines into their casino. I suggest staying away from any table using these. They weight the odds heavily in the house's favor. After each deal the dealer returns the cards to the machine where it gets shuffled. It used to be that if you saw a whole bunch of low cards coming out, you would expect a 10 and vice versa. Now ... since the cards are continuously being shuffled, it takes away what little chance you had of winning. Many players, including myself, are boycotting these tables. IT IS NEAR IMPOSSIBLE to win at these machines. Don't waste your money. Play at a different table or a different casino.

[wildpitcher]

I agree. I never play them.

[CeeJayRocker]

I don't like them either, but for a different reason. They take away that little break you get when it's shuffle time, and shuffling a six deck shoe gives one time to stretch, take a drink, light a cigar, whatever. With the auto-shufflers, there ain't no break, which is what the casinos like more than whatever edge it appears to give them. I say appears, because the same cards that are coming to you are coming to the dealer. The house wins because of the strict set of rules the dealer must operate under. You lose because you either don't know the rules, or get drunk and forget to follow the rules strictly (my particular problem), not because of the continuous shuffle.

[AnnPedi614]

I agree completely with CeeJay. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I don't believe the continuous shufflers give the house much of an edge if any. On a side note, my friend called last night she was playing a 6 deck shoe game with $5 table min at WYNN of all places. This on a Saturday afternoon! They didn't change the table to a $15 until 8:00.

[wildpitcher]

I think the point of the original poster could have been that the only way to win reliably at blackjack is to count cards. Continuous shuffle eliminates the ability to do this. Therefore, it takes away the most reliable chance for winning. I don't count cards myself, but have known those who do.

I also agree with CeeJayRocker on the no break aspect. I like a break now and again.

From the casino point of view, they can play more hands per hour, and since there will be no counting, it's more hands per hour with a guaranteed long term win. Rest assured, the casinos would not pay to put them in if there were not an edge in it for them.

[sonntex]

If you want to make money on the auto shufflers, invest in a company that makes them, like Shuflmastr.

[Kathi856]

I hate the shufflers because like CeeJay says, NO BREAK. We have 2 of them where I work, and those two tables are always full.....when I see Im scheduled for one of those games, I sign the trusty EO list, quick. If you follow basic strategy, you should still be okay no matter how many cards are in the shoe. Counting? Well, if you can count down a whole shoe without being noticed, and play it correctly and get everyone at your table to play it correctly, more power to ya.

[bostonkev]

just back and played a blackgame version called Switchback Blackjack at Casino Royale. You have to play two hands. Dealt four cards and you are able to switch the second cards (only) on each hand.

i.e. first two cards are 3 - K second two cards are A - 7. you can switch the ace to the king for even money (only) bj. then you have 3 - 7 and option to double down. Then you play the two hands as normal BJ.

Adds up quickly but I had some luck. Also another game that I had never played before was three card poker. Now...that adds up quickly. :)

[CeeJayRocker]

If you are one of the three or four people in the world who can successfully count a two deck game, much less a six deck shoe, there are many, many other more lucrative opportunities out there for you other than blackjack, many of them in the computer and sports book industries . . . . . I am constantly amazed at the comments from those who complain about this or that stopping their ability to count cards. . . . . . Successful card counting happens as often as the planets align, because even after all the counting, the dealer is still drawing from the same deck you are, and it's still a crapshoot (pardon the mixed vernacular) as to whether you'll get one of the tens in the deck or the dealer will. Actually, when it comes right down to it, even the difference between 6/5 and 3/2 is miniscule if you're winning . . . . .After all, they're still giving you as much as or more than you put down if your hand beats the dealer's . . . when they stop doing that, I'll complain. . .

As I'm so fond of saying, they didn't put crystal in the chandeliers and shrimp in the 99 cent cocktail on the generosity of winners . . . . . . .

[Victoria]

Currently the number if CSM's have been going down in Vegas over the past few years. If the casinos could they might have them on every table but the reason they do not and the reason their numbers have gone down is simply they only work on red chip tables. Places that tried them on green and black chip tables quickly found that most of these players voted against them with their feet and went to another casino to play.
The same kind of thing happened with the Mindplay machines when they were installed at the Hilton a few years ago. They lost the vast majority of their bigger players and removed the machines (now at the Flamingo)

Now if you are a basic strategy player, and not a card counter, the CSM really does not cost you more per hand but you will play more hands at a negative expectation. This means over time you will lose more.

Victoria

[wildpitcher]

If you are one of the three or four people in the world who can successfully count a two deck game, much less a six deck shoe, there are many, many other more lucrative opportunities out there for you other than blackjack, many of them in the computer and sports book industries . . . . . I am constantly amazed at the comments from those who complain about this or that stopping their ability to count cards. . . . . . Successful card counting happens as often as the planets align, because even after all the counting, the dealer is still drawing from the same deck you are, and it's still a crapshoot (pardon the mixed vernacular) as to whether you'll get one of the tens in the deck or the dealer will. Actually, when it comes right down to it, even the difference between 6/5 and 3/2 is miniscule if you're winning . . . . .After all, they're still giving you as much as or more than you put down if your hand beats the dealer's . . . when they stop doing that, I'll complain. . .

As I'm so fond of saying, they didn't put crystal in the chandeliers and shrimp in the 99 cent cocktail on the generosity of winners . . . . . . .

I basically agree with you on much of what you say except the part about the difference between 6/5 and 3/2 being miniscule. The 6/5 is a significant disadvantage and should not be played, in my view. If we all vote with our feet, maybe it will go away.

In order for counting to work, you have to play a lot, concentrate very hard, focus on being at empty tables, not drink alcohol, and still be lucky. In other words, have no fun at all. I play blackjack to have fun, so I don't try to count.

[wildpitcher]

Now if you are a basic strategy player, and not a card counter, the CSM really does not cost you more per hand but you will play more hands at a negative expectation. This means over time you will lose more.

Victoria

Victoria has hit the nail on the head and said it better than I tried to in an earlier post.

However, it seems it would work the other way, too. It would shuffle away the bad shoes more often, too.

I just don't like the Continuous Shuffle Machines, though. If you have a bad run, the money just goes "too fast". No breaks for anyone. Reduces the fun factor.

I vote with my feet and find another place to play when I see them.

[Victoria]

[QUOTE=wildpitcher]Victoria has hit the nail on the head and said it better than I tried to in an earlier post.

However, it seems it would work the other way, too. It would shuffle away the bad shoes more often, too.

Wildpitcher: If you believe in bad and good shoes then you can accept that the CSM will shuffle away both the good and bad. Actually you are no longer playing a shoe, you are playing a virtually endless group of cards.

Most dealers hate both CSM's and shuffle machines. It takes away the mental break they have when shuffling. No watching the bets, the players, figuring the payouts etc. Also while shuffling many dealers feel it is a good time to bond with players, which of course means tokes. So dealers see these machines as a way to get more money for the house and less money for them.

Victoria

[wildpitcher]

[QUOTE=wildpitcher]

Wildpitcher: If you believe in bad and good shoes then you can accept that the CSM will shuffle away both the good and bad. Actually you are no longer playing a shoe, you are playing a virtually endless group of cards.


Victoria

Victoria, I meant "good" and "bad" in the mathematical sense. The ordering of cards in the shoe and the composition of which cards come out when cause the remaining cards in the shoe to either be favorable to the player or not favorable. With CSM's you get a random ordering for each hand.

[Victoria]

[QUOTE=Victoria]

Victoria, I meant "good" and "bad" in the mathematical sense. The ordering of cards in the shoe and the composition of which cards come out when cause the remaining cards in the shoe to either be favorable to the player or not favorable. With CSM's you get a random ordering for each hand.


Wildpitcher:

Good point. What no one really seems to grasp is that when the remaining cards in a shoe favor the players, those cards favor all the players. The only difference between the average player and the cardcounter is that the cardcounter is aware of this fact and raises his bet and changes his strategy in play. At those particular times the guy who does not count is also favored and the casino has taken that opportunity away from him whe they use a CSM. The reverse is also true with the CSM, so basically you are playing ever single hand with the negative expectation of whatever the house advantage is.
It is almost like having a random number generator on a blackjack table.

Victoria

[blackchipjim]

Good morning all, as far as the machines go it has a very big impact on the game.I have played bj in different states and casinos that use them and found a losing game. You may be lucky a few times or not but the hard core fact is the house retains the edge by the use of them. It's not rocket science to count cards or just keep track of certain ones and apply the logic for raising or lowering your bets.We all have to remember if we play for the long haul we will lose over time if we play games with rotten rules and house edges that take more money away in a shorter time. Blackchipjim!

[blackjackbill]

I found a site that was current for rules in 2009. Don't know if they've changed for 2010. Any suggestions?

http://www.easymoneyblackjack.com/conditions_vegas.html

[rifledude]

The dealers are forced to be slaves to the thing and don't have time to react with the players much.

But the main reason I don't like the machines is because I can't track the flow of cards.

[AppleGreenJade]

I rarely rarely play BJ, but in the past when I would dabble in it, I used to be happy to see a table using them. Why? It's because I'm not a very patient person and it makes the game go so much faster.

However, after reading everyone's thoughts and consensus.....I will now stay away from them if I play again. You all make a very good point and I thank you for pointing out the cons on it.

As the saying goes, "patience does pay".

[monsterpocket]

I did a little checking and the house edge is actually a little lower when using a CSM (In a four deck game the edge is 0.034 percent and in an eight deck game it is 0.014 percent) but due to the number of hands per hour (20% more) the player gets killed by the over all house edge. Also I agree that it changes the flow of the game and the dealers tend not to be as friendly.

[KeLesego]

Thanks Monsterpocket

I wanted to check this out, but I can't get to the Wizard of odds at work.

[Cousin Eddie]

I found a site that was current for rules in 2009. Don't know if they've changed for 2010. Any suggestions?

http://www.easymoneyblackjack.com/conditions_vegas.html

Stanford Wong sells subscriptions for a monthly newsletter where he does a pretty intensive listing of all BJ tables rules in every casino (including Vegas) i.e. how many tables in each casino have 6:5 blackjack payouts, # of decks, cointuous shuffle, splitting aces, etc. You can buy yearly, quarterly or one month subscriptions (one month = $13). Apparently it is updated monthly. I found it very helpful when I bought a one month subscription a couple of years ago.

https://secure.bj21.com/order/order1.htm

I was at a casino night at a nightclub in Austin a few months ago. Of course, we were playing for funsies so the dealer was dealing down to the bottom of the shoe. Because of this and the fact that there were no pit bosses, I was able to win lots of fake $$$$ by counting and making huge bets at the bottom of a super-favorable shoe. Sigh, if only Vegas was like that.

[Cousin Eddie]

Free copy of a January 2010 survey of the BJ rules at various casinos can be found here:

http://wizardofvegas.com/guide/blackjack-survey/

[TitaniumMan425]

I had my single best BJ session playing a CSM in St. Louis a couple years back. Turned $80 into $1100.